16/7/03

I am just starting to serve in Church and, being a couple of inches shorter than the Church cassocks, need to get my own.

There seems to be conflicting advice on buttons: some people are saying that a thirty-nine button cassock is the "proper" thing, others that thirty-nine buttons are for priests, not servers. Nobody is propounding a strong view, merely relaying information they have inherited. The present Church cassocks seem to be a mixture.

Can anyone throw any light on this? Thank you for your help.

With best wishes,

Daniel Auger Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge 

REPLIES

17/7/03 from Colin Limming

I am not sure that the number of buttons on a cassock really matters. It's rather like the argument in medieval times 'how many angels can balance on a needle point?'. 

If Daniel really wants to join in may I suggest he contacts me and joins the Cambridge Chapter of the Guild. He will be very welcome. 

Colin Limming Chapter Secretary. St. Etheldreda, Cambridge. 

17/7/03 from Fr. Andrew Poole

Dear Daniel

I wouldn't have thought there was any legislation at all concerning the number of buttons on your cassock. My advice would be to go with the majority view at your own church. Colour is really far more significant than number of buttons, as most people in the congregation will only see you from a distance and are unlikely to be counting! From a purely practical point of view, if you do opt for a 39 button version, can I suggest that you buy one with a fly front, so that while you show 39 buttons, you only have to button about 10 - 15. (I speak purely from experience, having bought a 39 button cassock for my ordination. It takes AGES to get in and out of the thing!!!)

All the best

Fr. Andrew Poole (formerly member of the Guild, Chapter of St. John the Divine, Leicester). 

17/7/03 from Michael P D Johnson

The answer, Daniel, is really quite simple.

Bishop, priest, deacon, altar server, it really doesn't matter, for all wear the same style of cassock. The difference is in the presence/absence of a gap for the collar, and the colour of course.

Three buttons shall suffice on any cassock (one on either shoulder, and one at the hip), and one ribbon. There may be a central button also, for the Academic hood of those entitled to wear one at the appropriate civic occasions.

Michael P D Johnson Sacristan Church of S John Chrysostom, Victoria Park 

17/7/03 from Nigel Makepeace

Having just purchased new cassocks for my own church, we have gone over, for practical reasons to double breasted cassocks. This was because there were a number of servers who were constantly tearing buttons off their single breasted ones which normally had twelve buttons. I am reliably informed that the twelve buttons represent the twelve apostles. Thirty nine button cassocks are for priests representing the thirty-nine articles.
 
Many single breasted cassocks are often produced with about nine button or even one continuous zip! 

Having had difficulty finding a supplier who produce a good quality cassock at reasonable prices and are very obliging I can recommend Ormsby of Scarisbrook Ltd, Tel 01704 880294. 

Nigel Makepeace. Distributor for The Server 

17/7/03 from Anonymous

Another avenue to select perhaps could be to purchase a cassock alb. Although from a personal point of view, my cassock is a priest's cassock but only 20 buttons. But when I next change cassocks I will probably go for the full 39 buttons. 

17/7/03 from Anonymous

why not a zip 

17/7/03 from Anonymous

I have had the same problem as you are now experiencing and after many talks with my priest he came to the conclusion that the 12 button cassocks were those appropriate for servers, and the main points that Nigel Makepeace mentioned in his reply above are what my priest agrees with. So when I recently had a cassock ordered we ordered the 12 button style. But ask your Priest what he would suggest?
 

17/7/03 from Michael

"why not a zip?" 

Because it is an abomination before the Lord. 

It is good to hear, Nigel, that you have opted for the good English cassock, which is right and proper for use in an Anglican Church. 

They are also more cost-effective, as you don't have to go buying special cassocks to fit female servers or servers of greater girth; as the double-breasted variety only have three buttons, and so give more than any single-breasted one could. 

Mine came from J&M, who are absolutely lovely people, and reasonably priced as well. 

Michael, S John Chrysostom. 

 

20/7/03 from Daniel Auger

Thanks to all for the advice. Again, there seem to be several shades of opinion and it seems that the best thing for me to do is to ask the Vicar! Much as I agree with the point about double breasted cassocks being more English and more flexible, the custom of our parish is to wear Latin ones. 

Do the thirty-nine buttons really relate to the thirty-nine articles? I thought that they represented the thirty-nine lashes Our Lord received before His crucifixion? 

Thanks again for all your responses. 

Daniel Auger  

2/8/03 from Colin Limming

To return again to the question of the cassock buttons and its possible irrelevance I refer members to a former probationer member of my Chapter. This person declined to go forward to full membership because this person (I use this term for anonymity) said " I get the feeling that the members worry more about where they are standing rather than the actual reason why they are there - to worship". 

Harsh words and I am sure many will refute them but is there a grain of truth there somewhere? 

Colin Limming 
Secretary Chapter of St. Etheldreda, Cambridge. 

6/8/03 from Martin Wheeley

Buttons are one thing and colour another. Is there any law (Canon or otherwise) which specifies the colour (red/blue/black/other) which may (or may not) be worn by servers?

If there is a law, what is the punishment for transgression? 

Thanks in advance for any replies. 

Martin Wheeley Server, deputy organist and PCC member (but not all at the same time), 
Breedon Priory Church, Leics.  

23/9/03 from Henry JR

I believe Nigel means Ormsby of Scarisbrick Ltd.
Henry JR, NY

12/10/03 from Ted Conwell

I purchased my current double breasted cassock in 1984 on my first overseas venture.  I was visiting Westminster Abbey and decided to wander the back streets.  I came across a shop that made tailored vestments.  I believe the name was something like Whipples.  The workmanship was excellent and I still have that cassock.  It was made of wool and very comfortable in all weather.  When I entered the shop, I asked about an “Anglican” cassock.  They had no idea what I was talking about.  This was the term we used in the US .  They set me straight and set about to measure me.  When received, I couldn’t have been more pleased.

From my experience, there is no set rule about the style of the vestment.  It is left up to the individual.  I have fully adopted the double breasted look because of ease of fastening and the look.  My albs are also double breasted and any vestments I purchase in the future will also be double breasted.

Your brother in Christ and St. Francis,

Ted Conwell, tssf

28/10/03 from Michael Johnson

Dear Ted,

It is good to hear that you still have you cassock.  The double-breasted style that you describe is the better variety, and is known as the 'English' or 'Sarum' cassock, because that is what was used in the the Diocese of Salisbury when it developed its own liturgical 'Use', which then spread to most of the southern parts of England, and also to Wales and Ireland.  There is a thread discussing the 'English Use' generally.  This may be of interest to you.

I must admit to being confused by your comment about double-breasted albes.  Surely an albe is one continuous garment that has seams and doesn't fasten at all, and therefore is neither single nor double-breasted.  Perhaps you could clarify.  That would be helpful.

I am glad to hear that you are using a cassock that is faithful to Anglican tradition and the roots of English Catholicism, rather than borrowing from more continental practices.

Yours in Christ,
Michael P D Johnson
Sacristan, Church of S John Chrysostom
http://www.stchrysostoms.co.uk

Angels stand by the priest: the whole order of Virtues crieth out: all the space about the Altar is filled with these heavenly Powers, in honour of Him who leith thereon. - S John Chrysostom

29/10/03 from Richard Hawker

I have worn most styles of Cassock; Sarum (Which is the correct name for an Anglican Cassock) has the disadvantage, particularly during processions, of flying open during a sudden gust of wind; which is not good if you are wearing shorts!  I find that the 39 button Cassock is by far the most comfortable to wear, and when it has "all the trimmings" it looks very smart. By "all the trimmings" I mean 5 pleats at the back, and full cuffs, which are very useful for clipping pens to, and putting
service orders in. This style of Cassock is the uniform Cassock for St. Stephen's house Theological College, and so, because of the five pleats, something arose called the St. Stephen's house walk, because when the server walked, his heel would kick the back of the cassock, making it look as though he is on casters! 
Strangely enough, this most Catholic style of Cassock has no origin in the Roman Catholic Church, it is completely Anglo-Catholic in origin, so much so in fact, that all the Ecclesiastical tailors in Rome refuse to make them, calling them "Anglican Affectations!"
The entitlement to certain numbers of buttons on your Cassock originates from Rome, but is no longer enforced, it used to be 7 for a server, and then 15 for a seminarian, 20 for a Subdeacon, Deacon, and Priest, and 25 for a Canon, Monsignor, and a Bishop, as well as the higher ranks (Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope, etc).
Colour is not really that important, so long as you match the other servers in the Sanctuary, however, the MC is allowed a certain indulgence in this, as he may be slightly distinguished from the lower ranks of servers, but this can be done with a small (!) amount of lace, or other ornamentation on your Cotta/ Surplice/ Alb/ whatever. But, only Canons and higher are permitted different coloured buttons, which need not be gone into here.
As to where to buy one from, I must recommend J & M sewing services, who are very reasonably priced, and very good quality, they are also happy to do any design to meet your specification.

Hope this helps,
Yours in Christ
Richard Hawker
Sacristan of St. Peter's, Highfields,
Parish of the Presentation of
Christ in the Temple, Leicester

9/1/04 from Richard Doney

Whatever the style of cassock worn, it must be borne in mind that an 'English' cassock (i.e., a double-breasted one) should never be worn with a cotta, which should be reserved for single-breasted cassocks. To mix the two, as well as being simply wrong, looks silly to those who actually know about such things. 

Richard Doney, Chapel Warden, S John's College, Durham 

26/1/04 from Marilyn Drawwater

I have read with interest the correspondence relating to cassocks and, just to confuse matters further, as a new server I have just purchased my first cassock which contains only 6 buttons! It seems to me that what is most important is to look smart rather than how many buttons there are on the cassock. After all, most of them cannot be seen underneath a cotta. What does look awful, and happens much too often, is 3" of jeans and white trainers showing below the cassock. Perhaps we should be concentrating on gently persuading our young servers to wear their school trousers and shoes instead of jeans and trainers when serving. 
Marilyn Drawwater  

31/1/04 from Richard Hawker

I agree with the previous statement, there are few things more unsightly than jeans and trainers appearing from underneath a Cassock (particularly one that doesn't fit well) Another thing which is not quite as heinous as jean and trainers, is ordinary trousers appearing out from underneath the cassock, one thing hat I find helps to remedy this is tucking the trouser leg into the sock (providing the sock is plain black, and well elasticated), which I find does help. It is also a practice used by the Cowley Fathers (the Society of St. John the Evangelist), which they deliberately wear their cassocks two inches to short, so as not to bring about the sin of pride, and also, to stop the hem of the cassock getting dusty, which does happen if you are out and about in a cassock, especially during the summer. I will say one thing which the Sarum cassock has over any other style, if you have to kneel at any pint, whilst serving, you run no risk of kneeling on a button, which you do run the risk of doing with any other style- very painful! 
PAX 
Yours in Christ 
Richard Hawker 
Sacristan of St. Peter's, Highfields, Parish of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple, Leicester  

16/2/04 from Craig Aburn

I wholeheartedly agree with Marilyn Drawwater about the length of cassocks. I have been to many local and national events (and even, dare I say, individual churches) where the servers have vast quantities of trouser billowing from below the hem line and even trainers / brown shoes to finish off the effect! This is sadly not confined to servers and can be a bad habit of certain clergy too!!! One simple answer is to wear black socks and tuck the trousers into them, or not wear trousers at all. I was always under the impression that priests did not wear trousers - certainly no need for the more "old-fashioned" priest who lives in his cassock...

My personal opinion is that poor liturgical dress gives out all the wrong signals and gives the Guild an undeserved sloppy image. Should we not be looking at our "Sunday best" for God?

Craig Aburn GSS Group Councillor LG5&6  

29/2/04 from Jason Smith

I disagree with Marilyn Drawwater. Young servers should be allowed to wear anything they like under their cassock when serving. The most important thing is that they are participating in the church service. Young servers have to wear their school uniform all week and should not have to wear it on Sunday mornings as well. Who says that everybody has white trainers? Many young people wear dark blue or black trainers which look quite smart. 

Jason Smith (14)        

1/3/04 from 

Personally I think that many of you are making a lot of fuss about nothing.
It shouldn't matter what you wear, at least not as much as you lot seem to think it does.
Grow up and stop being so serious about something so trivial and unimportant.
Jason Smith has the right idea... its the participation that counts, nothing else should matter.
Also I would like to point out that the fanatics among you who care so deeply about something so trivial as Cassocks, are killing your religion.
If you have such strict rules, what hope is there of attracting new members to the church.

Note that I am not saying get rid of Cassocks or anything like that, just that you people are getting way too uptight about it.

ps. what about velcro!?   

3/3/04 from Marilyn Drawwater

I note that the person who responded on the 1st March does not have sufficient courage of his (or her) convictions to put his (or her) name to the outburst.

I would just like to make the following points:

1. I was not suggesting that anyone should be forced to wear anything they do not want to. What servers wear under their cassocks is singularly unimportant so long as it does not show! The suggestion of wearing school trousers and shoes was made only because these would not look so awful if they did show. I certainly believe young servers should be encouraged as they are our future.

2. Despite what has been said by one or two other people, I think it is very important how we look. There appears to be a general sloppy attitude to any kind of uniform along the lines of "What does it matter so long as we are taking part". It does matter. Whatever the reason, if you are going to wear a uniform of any kind and I count a cassock and cotta in that category, then for goodness sake wear it properly or do not bother otherwise it is an insult to the organisation it represents and shows a lack of respect.

Marilyn Drawwater

I would just like to add that I am proud to be a member of the serving team at my church and this is why I feel that appearance is so important.

4/3/04 from Richard Hawker

I heartily agree with the sentiments expressed by Marilyn Draywater- we are part of an organisation, not only a global one but one which transcends time and space, and goes into the eternal- so a uniform is appropriate, and so, as in any group which has a uniform, it should be neat, clean, tidy, and smart, down to all buttons being sewn on, though the correct number, I freely admit is not important- although different numbers have different significances, though they do tend to be forgotten over the years. 
Cassocks are important- they symbolise death to the world (black)- they show that we are performing a duty- they set us apart from the world- we are different- due to the nature of our calling, that is not to say (before someone jumps up and down decrying me as an elitist)- that others do not have jobs to do- there are, as St. Paul puts it "a variety of gifts from the same spirit." We are not, however, obsessed with Cassocks- but in case our anonymous writer failed to notice, the name of this part of the forum is "which Cassock" implying that the subject is the Cassock, and its usage, and so the posts are cassock based, unsurprisingly, and the Cassock has a great and ancient history, and there is a lot to be said about it (it was, for example made mandatory for all secular clergy (those not in religious orders) at the second council of Nicea- in the 400s, I think). Also, our anonymous poster says that strict rules drive people away from religion. I ask the following questions: 
1) Why is the fastest growing religion in the world Islam, which is not noted for its looseness when it comes to religious observance- and the most popular sects tend to be the more conservative ones? 
2) Why is it that since the "liberalisation" of the church in the 1960s, that attendance has halved, and vocations to the Priesthood and the Religious life plummeted (Nashdom Abbey (Benedictine) went from 40 odd monks in the 50s/60s, to its current 7 monks- this is universal)? There has also been a sharp decrease in attendance since 1992- the ordination of women to the Priesthood. 
3) Why are the only parishes which manage to maintain any sort of stability the more traditional parishes, which provide the church with vocations, and much needed money (with little in return really, especially Forward in Faith Parishes, but that is another story). 
I also draw people's attention to a comment by Fr. Martin Hislop on another part of this forum: "...this forum is an In-House locale for discussion on those "technical" matters for which the Guild exists. It is uncharitable... to ascribe to Guild members the characteristic that they are wasting time..." 
This is an edited version, to make it appropriate to this post, but the original can be seen, in context on the English Use thread of the forum. 
PAX 
Yours in Christ, 
Richard Hawker 
Sacristan of St. Peter's, Highfields, 
Parish of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple, 
Leicester

9/4/04 from Burkhardt

I'm just wondering if anyone is familiar with Lutheran use of the cassock. I am planning on entering an ecumenical seminary (Anglican, Lutheran and United Church Canada) and we're way out west in the Dominion of Canada and uniforms of any fashion are ignored at best and outright rejected at worst. I think adopting the cassock is a useful thing and a good way to encourage the unity of the catholic church (Roman, Lutheran and Anglican). And I agree about the statements
regarding tradition--contemporary culture changes every five minutes. Many people I know are seeking an attachment to history and something bigger. Perhaps another Oxford movement is in the works?

Also, I would like to adopt the cassock as a seminarian but have some questions:

1) Is this traditional for a seminarian, if so, is there other traditional garb to be worn by a seminarian. Keep in mind I'm Lutheran...

2) When should the cassock be worn? Can it be worn in class and on campus? Are there any times that it would be inappropriate to wear?

3) When wearing it on a rainy day, what kind of coat should be worn over it?

Thanks for any help and advice you might have!

Peace of Christ be with you all.

Burkhardt

23/4/04 from Richard Hawker

It is most excellent that you have decided to adopt the proper garb for one called into the service of the Lord!
Firstly, you have to be careful in Seminaries, where they may have strict rules as to when a Cassock is worn (St. Stephen's house has now gone so far as to say, I believe, that Ordinands may only wear them whilst serving- a great disappointment, and depriving them of an ancient right. 
In the old Roman Rite, after your admition to the tonsure (marking that you are a cleric) you adopted full clerical garb of Roman Collar, and Cassock, and this you retained for life, but I wouldn't advise doing this, as the Seminary authorities might get a bit upset...
I think the Modern Roman Rite is fairly quiet on the subject, and opinions change depending on the locality As to wearing it, it should be worn at all times when on site, especially in Chapel, and refectory, and also when working generally.
If it rains, or is cold, a cloak is the best thing, but this can be cumber some, so either a knee- length, single breasted coat, which looks very smart! Or, if you are feeling REALLY extravagant, you can invest in a either a frock coat, or a Doulette (I think it is spelt like that, I will check) which covers the Cassock completely, and looks very good, but is extremly expensive, depending on where you go.

PAX 
Yours in Christ, 
Richard Hawker 
Sacristan of St. Peter's, Highfields, 
Parish of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple, 
Leicester

23/4/04 from Fr. Graham Colby

May a long-ago Anglican venture some thoughts on this topic? As a boy I was taken to GSS functions at such "strongholds" as St Barnabas, Pimlico, and St John the Divine Kennington, as well as in my much more moderate & timid home parish of St Alban's, Ilford. 

I'd really be very interested if someone could come up with chapter and verse for the number of buttons required on a cassock. It sounds like the kind of thing that St Charles Borromeo might have legislated about for his own diocese but which was never imposed on the universal church & would be obsolete nowadays even in Milan. I really suspect there is no current legislation on the subject.

I happen to be in need of a cassock & got a catalogue from Baldrighi in Italy in the post this morning. Their cassocks seem to have around 23 buttons. I really can't remember how many my last Italian one - from Barbiconi - had. Probably about 25.

The "Roman Catholic Vestments" site on here gives 33 as the required number of buttons, recalling Christ's (possible) years on earth, but fails to say give any authority for this.

I'm afraid 30 years outside the C of E have in no way moderated my dislike for the so-called "Sarum" cassock. Unless extremely well tailored, and worn, preferably, with a cape & cincture - not that awful leather belt - and by someone with a reasonable figure, I'm afraid I find it a most ugly garment. And even more so when made with one of those hideous gaping necks intended to display acres of a 1" Roman collar which could never by any stretch of imagination have been "Sarum". Indeed, what possible evidence is there that such a garment was ever in use in pre-reformation England? When was it invented? Whence did it come?

I shall never learn to love the "Sarum" cassock - much less wear one! - but would respect it more if someone could produce a genuine historical pedigree or provenance for it.

I always understood the 39 buttons of the St Stephen's House cassock were an Anglo-Catholic joke. Where the 5 pleats came from I've no idea. In Rome I was forbidden - by French superiors - from wearing the short, buttoned shoulder cape, although a slightly longer version of this "camail" was quite normal wear for French secular clergy in the past. They never seemed to notice the 5 pleats though! 

The late Archbishop Lefebvre encouraged the wearing of fly-fronted cassocks with no visible buttons in his seminaries, probably because he was a Holy Ghost Father, and their cassock was of that style, and he usually ware one himself. Although this was not compulsory, cinctures (french-fashion) were, and for some reason birettas were strictly banned, all of which caused considerable discontent among English & American students! Lingering High Anglicanism??

Fr Graham Colby 
Oh, by the way, modern Roman seminaries are even tougher than St Stephen's House re clerical dress. At Paray-le-Monial - a supposedly conservative French seminary - in the 1970s they didn't even want us to wear a "croix de clergyman", and a cassock caused an uproar! I was given an equally rough ride while still an Anglican studying at the Institut Catholique de Toulouse in 1969-70. Very few seminarians even owned cassocks & it wasn't too safe to admit you did! I remember creeping out with a couple of friends one night with our cassocks tucked up under our coats to attend a Mass said by Mgr Lefebvre at the Dominican sisters' chapel, but the porter spotted us and reported us. Next morning it was "So where did you go last night then?"

Most seminarians in Rome now are expected to wear mufti as a rule. I don't know if cassocks are still allowed in chapel in many/any colleges, or if the "semi-clerical" dress of black suit & tie & white shirt - think borrowed from the US - still exists.

With regard to what priests wear under their cassocks - and yes, I agree visible trousers are so ugly - the future Cardinal Hinsley, of Westminster, writing to the future Cardinal Heenan, of the same see, then about to enter the English College in Rome, said "For the winter you need good warm underclothing - eg., 'mutande' or knickerbockers (something like golf knickers of strong warm material)....for summer.... 6 'mutande' of cellular material." I'm somewhat relieved I'm still young enough not to know what he meant by "cellular material"!

I did, however, see the kind of "plus fours" that older French clergy wore under their cassocks - tweedy things with leather bands around the calf & thongs to tie them up with.

At Ecône a few who could afford it wore these "mutande", but for most the Sisters just cut a few inches off ordinary trousers. Judging by his laundry Mgr Lefebvre made do with the same, and likewise with ordinary shirts with the collar cut off and a buttonhole inserted in the back!

Just a few thoughts and reminiscences.

Fr Graham Colby 

25/4/04 from Councillor David Froud

It was nice to read Fr Colby's recollections of earlier times. Seniority can often be linked with sagacity.

I would like to offer a 'speculation' about the five pleats. Could they represent the 5 wounds Bourne by Christ? In the same way that the 5 grains of incense are placed in the Paschal candle. I can cite no authority for this idea. 

It does seem that there are many invented reasons/excuses for things that happen in 'church' these days without any authority other than the whims of the ordinary be they priest or server. Omitting items or actions from the liturgy may be trendy but some of these 'rites' are an important part of the faith of our Fathers. Need I remind readers that priest and servers were imprisoned for their actions!

I think our role as servers should be:

1. to be still (and know that I am God) as implied by unobtrusive serving.

2. to enhance the beauty and solemnity of the Divine Offices.

10/7/04 from Angelica Raaj

Hi Daniel, I wanted to know if you know what the priest's and vicars cloths symbolise

Angelica Raaj 

13/7/04 from Vater Peter Bergerwein

Hello,

After many years of faithful service to our Church Marie-Am-Siege, our maker of cassocks and linens has closed forever. I have read mention of two providers in your forum and wonder if you could aid me in finding a contact for the one named ‘J&M’? I would be very grateful as I have read good things.

Thank you,

Vater Peter Bergerwein

Maria-Am-Siege

St. Andrä-Wördern, Austria

4/9/04 from Fr. Graham Colby

Dear Father Peter,

Go to www.jmsewingservice.btinternet.co.uk 

Yours in Dño.,

Fr Graham Colby 

4/10/04 from Jim Russell

Can I enter a reply in support of the traditional Sarum cassock? Those with doubts about its look and even perhaps its catholic pedigree might perhaps look back to photos of some of its more distinguished clients. Bishop Edward King (tried by the Archbishop of Canterbury for ritualism and the first English Bishop to wear a mitre since the Reformation) was never seen in anything other than a Sarum cassock. Countless Anglican religious have favoured it as their cassock of choice (mostly with a belt it has to be said) as the Community of the Resurrection still do today, not to mention the students of their College who actually wear them rather more than most. Speaking of CR, I also notice that Bishop Walter Frere is often pictured sporting the 'wide gap' on his cassock (indeed did the saintly Bishop King).

Personally, I find the Sarum cassock to be of greater comfort and elegance. I am happy to wear a cotta if need be with it but you really can't beat a long flowing fully gathered surplice or traditional alb. I would agree that it is enhanced with cape (closed at the front) and cincture (a simple band
only) and a scapular is always handy.
I'm curious to note that no one has considered the value of the English Canterbury or 'square' cap?
As a visual accompaniment to all I have written see the pictures of Michael Ramsay in full English dress with Pope Paul VI and accounts of how he was received by the English College dressed in that manner in Chadwick's biography. I rest my case!
Jim Russell

30/10/04 from Mark O'Connell

Where can I purchase a secondhand or inexpensive Anglican cassock? The best price I have seen for one in my size was US$250, far out my financial reach.

In Christ,
Mark O'Connell 

18/2/05

Of course these things are all a matter of taste, and what is wrong with diversity? I finally got around to having a cassock - a veste talare romana - made by Baldrighi, in Monza, and it does indeed have 23 buttons - quite large ones. It reminds me rather of what I think used to be style 735a in the Wippells catalogue and was regarded as more "Catholic" and "correct" than 39 small buttons & 5 pleats by really extreme Anglican papalists back in the 50s and 60s! There does seem to be a current tendency for Italian cassocks to be made with fewer buttons of late, maybe because priests are only wearing them for liturgical purposes. As one who rather favours - though doesn't practice - the habitual wearing of the cassock I regret this, but there you are - it's hardly of the essence of christianity, and in the world we're living in maybe we shouldn't be worrying too much about it.

I was moved by the references to Archbishop Ramsey. I encountered him from time to time at London University functions in the 60s and he was regarded with much affection by both Anglican and RC students - yes, in those ecumenical days he was indeed feted at the Venerabile in a way Cardinal Heenan wasn't! At my college, and at the RC chaplaincy in Gower St (in Mgr Bruce Kent's days) likewise. But I have to confess dear old +Michael always looked a total rag-bag in vestments, sarum cassock included. It was just the shape he was! Probably something like the shape I am now! I wonder if a truly Roman tailored cassock could do anything for either of us?? Maybe it's just as well I only have a small shaving mirror!! here can I purchase a secondhand or inexpensive Anglican cassock? The best price I have seen for one in my size was US$250, far out my financial reach.

4/3/05

Archbishop Michael Ramsey, as far as I am aware, didn't use the abominable affectation of the plus sign before his name. That was, I believe, a fairly ancient practice which deservedly died out only to be resurrected by egotistical modern Anglican bishops. Some priests even adopt the long-defunct habit of putting a + sign after their name. Very sad.

5/3/05 Ninian

I don't know at what point the Sarum style of cassock came about, but from some sources I have read, the buttoned Roman style didn't come into fashion until the early 1600's.

While I have never seen a 39 button with the 5 pleats, I have often seen the 33 button with or without 5 buttons on each cuff.

Then there is the Jesuit style which overlaps except for the row of buttons down the right side from shoulder to waist, and the Semi Jesuit which overlaps and fastens with tied and button at waist and shoulder (apparently the difference with the Sarum is that it wraps the other way).

Endless variety.

I too am seeking a source for an inexpensive cassock, in larger sizes due to the effects of age and gravity (ahem).

Ninian 

25/12/05 

Hi I live in the UK and I'm looking to buy myself some new Cassocks for Choir as my Mother usually picks them out for me, but I can't find anything on the Internet about where you can buy them or anything as all I can find is stuff like adult female robes or anything! 

My friend told me about this Forum and it's kewl....

Doe's anyone know any links or anything???
Any help would be great ^_^ 

Thanks 

29/12/05 

Do a Google search for "church supplies" and you will have several to choose from. Best bet is probably Vanpoules, Hayes and Finch or Ormsby.

7/10/06 

I have bought a cassock with 39 buttons and now I am going to get a D-breasted, be all things to all men that's what I say

11/10/06 

What a wonderfully Anglican statement! No wonder the Cof E is going to pot!

Fr. Joel Marable - 10/11/06 

Greetings to all,
I was just reading through the responses regarding the number of buttons on a cassock. I am looking to obtain an Anglican Cassock for myself, and am not sure where to go to obtain one. My current cassock is Greek, and now that I am in the ACC, I want to obtain an Anglican cassock. Could someone possibly direct me? Thank you and may the grace of our Lord be with you.

In Christ,

Fr. Joel Marable, M.S.+

15/7/07 

It is quite correct for anyone to wear a Latin Cassock with 39 buttons - the rumours around the numbering relating to the 39 articles of religion is nonsense... it is simply that with equal spacing and an average height gentleman, 39 is the number of buttons required. Regarding colour, it is incorrect in England for any church to wear red, purple or any other colour, except for the Cathedral Church of the Diocese. However Scarlet is reserved for the personal gift of the Sovereign and for Royal Peculiars. Her Majesty does tend to get quite annoyed if she sees Choirs (or others) wearing scarlet without her permission. Also a Cincture (sometimes called a Sash) should not be worn unless you are an Incumbent or a member of the Foundation of a Cathedral Church. The Roman Church refers to the Cincture when they mean a Girdle.

20/8/09 

I feel a little guilty, as I experienced great courtesy and service from J & M when buying a bibstock a year or two ago, but if anyone wants an excellent Roman cassock in polyester/wool at a most reasonable cost I would recommend www.chasubles.eu . I'm about 6' and my cassock has 29 buttons. The buttons seem to be sewn individually, as on Roman Prelates' cassocks. Moreover you get black piping and brush braiding as standard - imagine how much all those "extras" would cost over here! They tailor the collar beautifully, so if you're a priest it will really look smart. They even add that little snap at the very top that makes the collar perfect. I paid £135, but because we have to be British and different the price has gone up and I think it's about £142 now. And more than worth it!
Birettas are only £20, and I bought a lovely lace cotta offered by Luzar at I think £98 for just £45.